Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 12:55am

Mesa says they use Celestion Vintage 30's, but is there something different about the V30's they use with the Black Shadow sticker and Celestion V30's? My recto cab came with Celestion V30's but have the black shadow sticker on them. They sound like V30's to me, but I haven't directly compared them to other V30's. Anybody know about this?

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:05am

they are 70w V30's, just like the Marshall and Hellatone ones

Post subject:Re: What's The Deal With Mesa V30's?

Not sure man My recto cab has regular english v30's

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 1:39am

Nothing wrong. I just bought 3 brnd new Mesa Recto 4x12 straight cabs. They sizzle and got plenty of thump. Was going to X pattern some G12T75's in there, but not worth messing with.
Steve

Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 2:19am

Cabs made by Mesa post 2004 have 70 watt Vintage 30's. I'm not sure why or what the difference is.
I did read once that the Mesa MC-90 is simply a CL-80 that Mesa tweaked and added 10 watts to.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 3:15am

this is what i got from celestion about marshalls v30s.

Post subject:Re: What's The Deal With Mesa V30's?

Just to clarify, the Avatar Hellatone 60's fall into two different categories. Regular Hellatone 60's are normal Vintage 30's, nothing special about them. The Hellatone 60L's are rated at 70watts AND have a different dust cap. These are the ones specially made for Marshall, and AFAIK are not the same as the ones Mesa uses.
Hellatone 60:
Hellatone 60L:

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 5:29am

I always thought they sounded a bit different too.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 7:15am

After 2003 they are all made in China, Mesa has Celestion finish their V30 frames in the UK but its still Chinese sheet metal since the stamping facilities went to China. Once a company moves to China the steel is poor quality just look at our Bay Bridge.
Low carbon content is why the Chinese steel sucks, in the USA and the UK most steel is around 30% carbon content in sheetmetal applications. Chinese steel is 6% Carbon content tops, most is just food grade or medical grade 3% Carbon sheetmetal.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:00am

Is not the Heritage series 100 % made in U.K. ?
Anyway, Mesa also has it in their contract with Celestion that they use old-fashioned, slow drying glue in the Mesa branded V30 and MC90s. Glue composition is a critical element in speaker construction.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:10am

No the metal frames are all stamped in China. Celestion no longer has any of their sheet metal stamping dies in the UK.
The rest of the speaker for the Heritage and Mesa series is made in the UK. I would rather have good metal frame with my speakers.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:15am

Well thats certainly interesting and good to know. Were the frames outsourced since 2003 as well ?

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 8:31am

Celestion USA anounced it back in 2003 I think there is a post on TGP about it. They make is sound like the entire speakers for Mesa and Heritage series are still 100% made in the UK but they are not because the metal frames are entirely made in China. They took their entire sheet metal facility in 2003, tooling and all to China so they no longer have the ability to stamp frames in the UK.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:44am

This is much more crucial than a frame holding a speaker. I'd be much more worried about how my speaker was made and the effect it has on my tone than whether or not the frame holding my speaker was going to corrode after 200 years instead of 210 (random numbers). I knew I shouldn't have left my cab in the back of my space cruiser! Maybe we should analyze the ink on the stamps next. I hear that Marshall's Celestions use a low grade ink made in Indonesia when stamping serial numbers on the frame as opposed to Mesa that uses ink from a US factory in Nashville. I don't want no stinking Indonesian ink on my frame..
My point is who cares if it sounds good and gives you the tone you want? We should worry more about playing guitar and making music than whether or not our speaker frame can last 210 years instead of 200. If it sounds good, that's all that matters. You're not going to have any reliability issues with any frame that Celestion ships in your lifetime, your kid lifetime, you grandkids, lifetime, etc.

Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 10:51am

I see your point. But I wonder if a frame made with less rigid steel might flex, or impart some sympathetic vibrations when you've really got it loud and cranking. Its probably not an issue, but my Tone chasing OCD mind cannot help but ponder this

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:01am

I understand where you're coming from. I think a company that's so picky down to the glue that's used would certainly not agree to anything in another part of the construction unless they were 100% behind it.

Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:04am

We are not talking about ink we are talking about a major component of the speaker. Thats like saying a guitar's wood does not matter as long as the hardware, pickups and electronics are all quality US or German made.
If you saw low carbon Chinese sheetmetal next to American 4130 side by side you would know how much of a huge diffrence this is. I can tak a 1mm thick piece of low carbon Chinese steel and bend it with my hands no problem, I can't do this with 4130 unless I use a break to bend it. Most people dont know or care about metallurgy or its role in industrial components, it takes things like a bridge to fall into the water before people realize they are getting screwed.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:08am

I can be behind a lot of things if I am getting paid enough. I used to quote and get things made with this Chinese steel and the cost savings for the company is so huge that they will figure out a way to market the change to their customers to justify the move i.e. we kept the glues the same (big whoop)
Since most people dont really know about carbon content percentages in steel they think this is no big deal.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:11am

I do not doubt the inferiority of Chinese steel for a second, but I honestly wonder if it matters in the normal operation of a speaker.

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Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:15am

Thegame hits on exactly what I'm talking about. Is there a difference? Sure. Does it really matter in terms of a guitar speaker? No. We're just worrying and spinning quality conspiracy theories where no issues are known to exist.
Have you heard any complaints about Celestions falling apart from people touring the world and abusing them since 2003, or heard even a single complaint from anyone..ever..about a frame bending or warping? Those cabs/speakers have been toured around the world, tossed in and out of vans and planes by roadies who don't gently handle them and blasted in everything from bars to arenas with all sorts of head units pummeling them and there's never been quality concerns or complaints.
My point is there's no use in looking for a problem where one isn't known to exist. If you like an amp or cab and enjoy it's sound, play it..

Posted: Mon, Nov 23, 2009 11:44am

Dont get me wrong I am not saying post 2003 v30s sound like crap but if its my money I am buying pre 2003 Mesa/Marshall cabs.

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Posted: Wed, Dec 02, 2009 11:46am

How do you know the steel has no effect?
How do you know that it has no effect on a guitar speaker?
have you done any analysis?
As the metal resonates with the speaker I can guarantee differences in the sound based on density alone. The only way to know would be to compare two exact models with each kind of steel. To blindly say it doesn't matter without any analysis is assumption.
I for one believe it would be a worse sound .
a good example of late is the floyd sustain block phenomenon that has proven that high quality metals vs cheap pot metals have positive effects on resonance.

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Posted: Sat, Jan 08, 2011 7:16am

Valtiel, I don't know if you're still around here but i wanted to get your thoughts on the following, please bear with me..
Yes, the 60L is different from the regular Hellatone 60, different dust cap but also a beefier magnet and voiced a bit different in the low end. When you say the 60L are the ones made for Marshall, are you talking about all factory loaded Vintage 30 Marshall cabs or specifically the ones that say 'Marshall Vintage' on the drivers like the 1960AV and BV cabs?
The reason I ask is because I briefly owned a stock 1960BV and immediately noticed more girth to it's tone over my other Marshall cab that had normal V30's in it. I ended up trading that cab for something more rare (opportunity knocked) but I've always wanted to get my hands on another set of those Marshall branded drivers that were in that cab. Over a year's worth of research lead me to believe that those drivers were what some people refer to as the 'super' V30 and that they were at one time also supplied to Mesa. Contrary to what someone else posted in this thread, a member of the Marshall amps forum posted a reply he got from from a Celestion rep who said that although he couldn't really discuss it much because of agreements they have with certain customers, the Marshall branded 'Vintage' drivers are not off the shelf V30's and that's all he was willing to say. Seems we have some discrepancy here between statements made by 2 Celestion reps. But if one was to believe the one from MY source, then it seems to point in the direction that the 'Marshall Vintage' drivers are in fact the super V30's and that this was the difference in tone that I had immediately noticed when I purchased that 1960BV. I also have just assumed that the Hellatone 60L, from its description, is also this OEM super V30 made for Marshall. Based on this, I have been keeping my eye out for a set of those drivers to put into an unloaded early to mid 70's Marhsall 4x12 I got for free this past summer.
.. but here's something that throws a wrench into the whole thing. Seems some things have changed at Avatar and Dave is able to do some things he wasn't able to in the past, like ship to Canada and discuss the source of the mysterious OEM drivers he uses for his Hellatone 60L. I had a conversation with him and, I hope he doesn't mind me saying, they are OEM drivers originally supplied by Celestion to VOX, not Marshall.
So now I'm back to being confused. I thought I'd just buy a set of 60L's if I can't find a set of the Marshall Vintage but now I'm back to not knowing if they are the same speaker. And I don't know for sure if the 'Marshall Vintage' are this alleged 'super' V30.. 2 different Celestion reps say different things. What I do know is I really liked the sound of that 1960BV cab so maybe I should just look for a set of those drivers regardless of what they are

Posted: Sat, Jan 08, 2011 9:34am

neither, actually--the 60Ls are supposed to be the same driver that was used in only one model of Marshall cabs, the Mode Four. so the 60L would not be the same driver as regular OEM Marshall V30s.

i too have read that the Mesa V30s are different somehow from regular V30s and from the 60Ls.
add all that to the Made in England vs. Made in China thing re: V30s, and it can get pretty confusing. you might try the 60Ls--i recently got a pair, and to me they sound distinctly different from V30s, with more bite or grit or edge. or you might just have to keep searching for an old Marshall cab of similar vintage as the one you had.

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Posted: Sat, Jan 08, 2011 9:58am

See that confuses me even more. According to Dave at Avatar the 60L wouldn't be in any Marshall cabinet at all. I specifically asked him if this driver is in any Marshall cabinet.. his reply was simply.. VOX.
Also, where you used the phrase 'regular OEM Marshall V30s' are you saying all Marshall OEM V30 drivers apart from the Mode 4 are the same driver including the 'Marshall Vintage' labeled ones in the 1960AV and 1960BV cabinets? In other words, if I want specifically those V30's that are in the AV and BV cabinets (regardless of whether they are so called super V30's or the same thing as the 60L) do I actually need to limit my search for those drivers to those 2 specific Marshall cabinets.. or are those the V30 that Marshall uses in ALL of their V30 loaded cabinets? I've never seen the labels on other Marshall factory V30 loaded cabs, I've personally only seen ones that were replaced with aftermarket Celestion branded Vintage 30 and the Marshall branded ones in the AV and BV cabs so that's why I ask.

Posted: Sat, Jan 08, 2011 11:50pm

Per Celestion, the V30's that they make for Mesa and Marshall are both proprietary designs and are only made for those 2 companies. At least they we're in the past, I don't know if that's still the case today.

Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 12:15am

I myself thought the Black Shadows were Chinese and the 70 watt V-30's were English,and the newer 60 watt speakers were
Chinese as well,i can only hear a slight difference in sound,the 70 watt were a little fuller.Just my ear opinion.
Not sure if my 1x12 Mesa is original but it's 70 watts to.

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Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 12:46am

'Black Shadows' are Mesa's own OEM brand name and they used to stick them on every OEM speaker they used, although the practice seems to have died off with the exception of the MC90, which has no off the shelf equivalent. Over the years various Celestion and Eminence speakers have carried the Black Shadow labels and were made in either the UK or the US, respectively.
Current 'Black Shadows' are the Celestion MC-90. It's a custom speaker made for Mesa in the UK that's based off the old G12-80 (not the Classic Lead 80).
And to add to the confusion, the Black Shadow 'Vintage' speakers aren't V30s. They're Eminence VS-12s.
So far as I know Mesa has never relabelled V30s as Black Shadows. I'm guessing that they wanted people to know they were using V30s for marketing reasons, so they made it obvious.
I asked one of the dudes at Mesa about the 60w/70w thing and was told it's the same speaker it's always been, they just updated their literature so that it no longer conflicts with the information on the Celestion website. If you look on the back of the cabs most of them should still be labelled 140w or 280w and will continue to do so until they run out of stickers, at which time they'll update those as well.
My guess (although I never thought to ask at the time) is that they were tired of people phoning them to ask why their cabs were mislabelled 280w when according to the Celestion website V30s were only 60w speakers..

Post subject:Re: What's The Deal With Mesa V30's?

On a related note, do the black and white speaker wires that Mesa uses have soldered ends or clips?
Never checked mine..
*Edit.. from what I can see from pics on the net it looks they are all soldered.

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Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 2:03am

Notice on this list, Mesa lists the 70 watt V30's as 12' Fillmore V30's and the 60 watt V30's as 12' Celestion V30's.....(?)
http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/ .. akers.html

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Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 2:07am

Very informative,thank you,i had no idea Mesa used Eminence speakers,i always thought,early on anyway that those were made for Soldano,but since the mid 90's i started to see them more.

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Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 2:12am

So then are all the other Marshall V30's (factory loaded) the ones with the 'Marshall Vintage' label on them like the ones in the AV and BV cabinets? If so, then that means they are probably the exact same driver (whatever that may be) and I don't have to limit my search to drivers from those two specific cabinets.. which might make it a bit easier to find what I'm looking for.

Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 10:31am

Fillmore is Mesa's house brand. Mesa already builds bass speakers (Powerhouse series) and their plan was to expand it to include the C90 and V30. For whatever reason the project was more or less abandoned back in 2004, however they're still listed in their literature for some reason.

Post subject:Re: What's The Deal With Mesa V30's?

i noticed that in your post. all i can say is that it contradicts everything i've read about the 60Ls, including from people who got their info from Dave and people who peeled the labels off their 60Ls and underneath found the same labels as the drivers in the Mode Four cabs.
who knows. aren't Vox and Marshall owned by the same company?

sorry, i have no idea. all i meant was 'any other OEM Marshall V30s that are not the ones in the Mode Four cab.' i don't know if there are even more different models of OEM Marshall V30s or not.
the 60w/70w thing that some dude says, i've read in multiple places too--it doesn't mean they're different speakers; it's just Celestion's more conservative power rating compared to Mesa's. but the Mesa V30s do seem to sound different from the Celestion ones, so they may actually be a different speaker anyway.
and testing this weekend, i'm finding a sound difference between China V30s with the 'Celestion International' label and other China ones with the 'Celestion International Vauxhall Rd Ipswitch' etc label. i think i'm going to quit testing and just put each pair in the cab that they sound way better in.

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Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 6:23pm

Hmmm. So I'm really curious now if anyone here has a V30 (marketed as having Vintage 30's) factory loaded Marshal cab that is not the 1960AV or 1960BV and what the label on the back says. If anyone has a picture that would be even better

Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 6:31pm

I have a 1960 AV cab serial # starting M2002- & a 1960BV cab serial # starting M2001- and they sound great. They are both rated at 280W. I have never opened them up to find out what's inside though.

Posted: Sun, Jan 09, 2011 6:50pm

Actually I can answer what's on the label of those drivers in those cabinets.. it's the 'Marshall Vintage' label. But what I want to find out is if this exact same driver with this label is what Marshall is using in other models of their cabinets that are marketed as being loaded with Vintage 30's. Whatever those drivers are, I know I really like them and want to find a set of them. It could very well turn out that they are just regular V30's and not the ones with the larger magnet and different voicing like Dave's own description of the Hellatone 60L. But like you say, they do sound great, and to me, the cab I briefly owned that was using them (1960BV) noticeably had more girth than my other Marshall 4x12 cab that had aftermarket 'Vintage 30' labeled drivers in it.

Posted: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:05pm

right, but they also could be a proprietary V30 made only for Marshall, like NewWorldMan mentioned, different from both regular after-market V30s and from 60Ls aka Marshall Mode Four drivers.
that's why this V30 stuff is so nuts--Mesa and Marshall may be getting unique models of V30 that aren't available anywhere else, maybe even more than one, but those and the after-market ones are still called V30s.

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Posted: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 4:36pm

Right, gotcha. Yes, that is possible.. something different altogether but still in the V30 family.
I'm still curious if anyone has a Marshall vintage 30 factory loaded cabinet that has the actual vintage 30 label on the drivers as opposed to the 'Marshall Vintage' label like the drivers in the 1960AV and BV.. or do they all say 'Marshall Vintage?' Actually I need to go do some research and find out what other cabs of theirs are even supposed to have v30's.

Posted: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:05pm

This could also be wiring, fellas.
A buddy had a marshall 1960 'Vintage' cab, and I removed the 16/8/4 jack assembly, changed it to series-parallel, and it was a whole new cabinet. Please account for wiring when doing comparison. It's night and day in terms of difference..

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Posted: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 5:29pm

Nigel, not sure I follow that. I was running the BV at 16 ohm mono (switched) like my other cab was series-parallel hard wired to. Soldano head always set to 16 ohm. The BV was noticably thicker in the bottom.

Posted: Mon, Jan 10, 2011 7:41pm

Oh..many people pre-judge cabs not knowing that they're wired parallel-series.

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Posted: Tue, Jul 17, 2012 6:22am

I have a Mesa 4x12 with V30's and I don't like the 'blanket over the cab' sound of it. Luckily I own a Marshall 1960BV with the 'super V30's' too, and I love the sound.
My head is Triple Rectifier and I bought the Mesa 4x12 to complete the set.. Not knowing the tonal difference (both V30's right, lol) Up until now I used the Marshall under my Triple recto.
Do you guys think I get the sound of the Marshall out of the Mesa cab when I swap the speakers (to be clear; Marshall V30's into the Mesa cab)?

Posted: Tue, Jul 17, 2012 1:11pm

I do not think so .. but not sure.
I believe a lot of it is the cab in this case.
If you change them out please post your thoughts on this thread ..
Welcome to the forum..

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Posted: Tue, Jul 17, 2012 2:26pm

i think thats just the cab. my marshall doesnt have v-30's in it right now, but my mesa cab and an engl cab we have in our space both do, and sound very different.

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Posted: Tue, Jul 17, 2012 8:15pm

i think thats just the cab. my marshall doesnt have v-30's in it right now, but my mesa cab and an engl cab we have in our space both do, and sound very different.[/quote]
The Engl cab have the regular V30's and Mesa have there own V30's that are voice a little darker. Could be the cab construction but it also has something to do with the speakers itself. Mesa are rear loaded and Engl front loaded. If he has the Traditional cab it will probably sound closer but if he has the Recto (oversized) it will affect the tone even more. I also think your best bet is to try it and then tell us what you think, it's not a very complicated thing to do.

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Posted: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 4:41am

To be honest I can't really imagine the construction of the cab is causing 'the blanket'. But, yeah I'm going to swap the speakers and listen. Although I know it's pretty straight forward, I think it's going to be a good afternoons work. Getting the cabs at home alone is a 2 hour job ;-) And I'm a little scared of the Mesa speakers being soldered (but on the other hand, I have build/soldered guitars, amps and pedals).
To give a little backstory; I bought a triple recto 3 years ago and bought a second hand Marshall 1960BV with V30's. This cab won in a Musicstore-cab-shootout I did with my band-buddy's. At band practice it was/is hard for me to hear myself clearly (with a triple!?..) and I figured out it has to do with the cab standing on the floor and not being angled. Also, it gives me a little too much low end. So after a year or so I figured I needed a straight cab and wanted to have a Mesa cab to have a nice matching set. Buying it new was out of the question so I waited until a second hand one popped up at my national Ebay equivalent. A few weeks back one popped up and I bought it.
Not knowing about the difference in V30's, I now got my 'new' Mesa 4x12 standard slanted cab with V30's. When I plugged it in at band practice I instantly noticed the muffled sound.. and to be honest I was quite surprised and disappointed! Ok, I bought it for a very good price and even if I had to sell it again I would not lose money on it. But my little heart was kind of broken because I love my Mesa amp and wanted to have a 'full' Mesa set.
I decided to look for a solution and maybe I found one here! In any case I learned a thing or two about V30.. and that's good too.
Will post my findings after the swap!

Posted: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 8:17am

The Mesa cabs have a particular 'jute' grill cloth that does roll off more highs.

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Posted: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:17am

Mesa cabs really need some volume pushed through them in order to open up. Low and even medium volume levels just don't cut it. Probably has to do with the Mesa V30's being a smoother and darker version od it's self.
I would also oped the cab up and check the wiring. Even though Mesa solders their speaker connections, I would still check that everything is proper since it is a second hand cab.

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Posted: Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:51am

I checked the wiring before I paid for the cab. Inside looks (and smells!) like new. Solder joints are tight.
Volume is not the problem, I push it pretty hard at band practice. My bandmate plays a 100 watt Marshall plexi at 75% of it's (custom installed) master volume and my recto is around half on the master volume. And no, the singer and drummer are not very happy at the end of rehearsal day